BIM in SNCFR Digital Transformation: Engineering, Integration, and Operation

JUDICAEL DEHOTIN: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this Autodesk University class about digital transformation using BIM in the French railways company. My name is Judicael Dehotin. I am the deputy director of the BIM program at SNCF. Just a few words about me. So I'm in charge of BIM program implementation at SNCF Réseau for design, construction, and operational phases. And in this area, I specifically in charge of projects management and tooling strategies. And I also in charge of process and training change management for people who are involved in this program.

And I am also representative of infrastructure manager in Europe's main innovation program-- main name's Europe's Rail-System Pilar-- that aim to work on the railway system architecture. And in the framework of this program, SNCF evolve to organize the sector around architecture framework. In other words, my mission is to lead SNCF contribution in IFC rail project. That is about data transfer, railway data in domain specification as a stakeholder. And around my background, I am civil engineer, specialized in hydraulics, and with strong experience in design, civil engineering, structure-- PhD in physical dimensional modeling in water and the environment domains.

So I'm happy to be here with you to share exactly a few points, and to discuss around how railway issue and challenges can be tackled using BIM technology, and how BIM can help for that. I will also highlight how highways' requirements can be a major issue on the BIM development in this year. I will share with you the role and the place of the data around this BIM, and interoperability for railway system integration. I would like also to share with you the data transfer issue that is fundamental in relation to CAD data and geometry exchange information.

By the end, my goal also is to talk with developers to understand what's expected for railways specialist and railways expert, and to help them to succeed in the digital transformation in railway system. So, first of all, a few words about SNCF Réseau, who are we, and what we are doing. Railway system-- railways company-- French railways company SNCF group is a global company that is about 260,000 people and with $30 billion in sales this year. So SNCF managing 3,000 stations and 200,000 train path delivered every year.

So about the SNCF group activities. SNCF is a champion in Europe in high speed rail. And, in total, about network that we manage is one of the most dense network in the world. And we can see that SNCF is a leader in passenger transportation, but also freight and logistics in France and in the world.

So about the SNCF activity in the world. We have also some subsidiaries that is well-known-- Keolis operators that operates train, that operates bus and the metro. And Keolis-- Geodis, sorry, that is dedicated to logistics around the world in many, many countries. So 1,000-- 170 countries and around the world.

So this is a map to highlight how-- what is the countries where SNCF operates. And outside France, SNCF have 62,000 people that is work on the different subsidiaries. And two, SNCF is really global operators that has huge impact in railways structure and railways transportation in the world. Now about SNCF Réseau, which is one of the subsidiaries of SNCF group.

SNCF Réseau is the owner of the French railway network, and is a major player in the development of the French railways network. So about sales, SNCF Réseau is about 6 billion euros per year in sales. And SNCF Réseau operates 28,000 kilometers of lines, and it's about 15,000 trains every day, 250,000 tons of goods, and 5 million passengers every day. To support that, SNCF Réseau invested lots in the network, around 2.5 billion devoted to the renewal track. 745 kilometers of tracks renewed each year for that.

SNCF invests also in the development of the network to increase the capacity of the network, and that is about 2 billion euros per year. So SNCF Reseau is in France-- the major actor for shaping the network and to increase his capacity. That is many, many companies involved are in these activities led by SNCF. So what is the core activity of the SNCF before coming to BIM? Just a review to make the focus on the main activity-- the main value of the SNCF activity.

The first one is the end user services. As you know, transportation of people, passengers, freight, we need to work on these services, and to provide the end user some solution for transportation. That is the main activities. And to support that, we are working on the layer on operate this network. So remote supervision, command and control them, dispatch the traffic, and control and command these different kind of installation on the field. We need to manage station and all activities on station.

And by the end, these activities is also supported by the resources. Resources here mean infrastructure-- physical infrastructure that we need to renew work, the infrastructure to develop them, and to create new capacity-- to have more capacity, and more possibility for transport of goods and people. So-- and to make our release in operational condition, we need to monitor and maintain them-- this infrastructure. That is the main activities of the SNCF Réseau.

The pictures on that, you have-- this is a picture that depicts a different kind of installation. At the bottom, you have train, you have track. And to make train run, you need some energy services. You need to provide high voltage services to the train. You need telecommunication services to make information translate between different kinds of assets and the train.

So we have some system that manage that. On the top of the resource layers, you have some control and command activities. Control and command activity is about-- from the left to right, you have some backbone of telecommunication that is control all service telecommunication issues. That mean we need to control communication between the train and the people who are operating the network. We need to have communication between different kind of assets to have-- to give information on the truck side, and to send it to the backbone, and to make it available for different users.

We need to manage the train to avoid the risk on the traffic signaling equipment. We need to manage them with remote management. We need also to manage poor traction. That is an electrical risk. You need to manage safety of people which is operating on the network.

By the end, we need also to have some resources that are dedicated to the monitoring the infrastructure, monitoring the train, monitoring different kind of assets in the network, but also to make it available for traffic for services. And the control and command layer have-- on the top on that, you have sort of regulation and operation layers. That is about software, that is about computer, and that's about people who have a look on what's going on the network, and to give, quickly, as well to people to make the traffic safe, and to make it working well. So by the end, you have some informal services layer.

That is information for passenger. You have some allocations up front. We need train, we need to organize this before the traffic of the day. And you have also to manage all installation in the station. That is a picture that depicts what I say. We have multi-domain engineering. All can imagine behind all these systems, you have some different specialties that really defines kind of activities between the guys who is working on civil works, or people who are working on signaling and telecommunication. We have really huge diversity of people who are working together, working on engineering, working on shifts out on the field, or working also in informatics layers, and/or security aspects of the work.

So we need to integrate them. And what I mean coming here is that BIM now is really focused on the bottom-- is focused on infrastructure. BIM is focused on assets. But we need to go further to make BIM more usable, to make BIM usable for more services, and more function in the rail system. So what I'm going also to explain about the subsystem here is about what mean managing track subsystem.

That means that we need to keep the train on the track. So that to do so, depending on the speed of track-- the train-- we need to manage the different kind of architecture of the track. We need to manage a different kind of equipment to give different direction available. For energy subsystem, you need to have transformation or high voltage power, to make it available for the train that the right voltage, and you have to supervise all that with remote supervision to make it work every time. But also to make possible the people who need to have specific works on the field installation, you need to manage all that.

Telecommunication services is about a different kind of telecommunication. We have on the network that WI-FI wireless communication. We have also wired communication using fiber, and so on, and so on. We also telecommunication architecture, dedicated and safe telecommunication services that is avoid the risk of attacks or something like that-- cybersecurity issues. And when we are talking about signaling, is really about traffic safety.

Traffic safety means we need to ensure that different trains who are working on the network are running safely. If there are anything on the network, then we have to manage that using different kind of engineering and system to manage that. And as you know, civil work is really the basics, and on the-- about different kind of works you need to do to make the train, and different kind of infrastructure to support all that. So as incentive, we are not just building some asset, building some infrastructure.

The main issue in the railway system here is the system integration. How can we make all this together, working together without interfering with each other? So we need to be each system work right, and but we need also all the systems work together correctly. So that is the main issues, and that have a huge impact in different tool we use and the requirement around these tools people need. All this communicates very well.

So in the railway context, we have also different kind of regulatory context that is really huge. It's about local authorities, for example, that are heavily involved in the infrastructure development, station development, and local infrastructure civil infrastructure. So we need to work with these kind of stakeholders. We need to work with transport authority-- that's to ensure the safety of the different traffic.

We work at European level that have the rules to have interoperability of the train between countries. And by the end, for the software developer community, all software that is used in railway system, and used in critical system in the railways, need to be certified using different kinds of standards that is dedicated to railway application-- related to communication, to signaling, and the process. So that is the context.

We need to handle that to be sure that we are able to manage the railway system, and that is the context BIM can be implemented. So the main essential vision for railway network for 2030 is about renewal-- track renewal to make the network really available because they hold the-- owners hold the network. But many, many operation to have renewable network. And we have to adapt with the new needs of end user.

We need to adapt the traffic to the last kilometers traffic. So we need to adapt the answer of the network to the evolution of the people needs. We need to have more performance using digitalization, improve productivity, and we have also to have-- to lower the cost of the maintenance and operation of the network. That is a high targets of the network the next few years.

So for that different kind of digital program at the SNCF setup, BIM program is one of them. And the high level ambition, we need to comment on that, and the answer of the BIM need to be really relevant for this objective. So how are we doing BIM? How network actor doing BIM is generally to have more general ambition around digitalization. So our belief for that, for BIM, is in few points, in that interoperability of BIM model for digital continuity is really, really important for us.

Why? Because since you have many, many subdomain, you need to communicate between these domains. That's about different kind of software that needs to communicate to be-- the system be right. So you need to have multi-domain, and multi-format integration. That is the basics. So interoperability is not a choice. That is really-- it makes sense to be able to use BIM end-to-end in the railway system.

In the railway system, linking to that, you have also multi-source data. That is existing data that is using many kind of context. And for that, multi-tools also. To design, to operate this infrastructure, you have multi-format. And the choice made is use common data environment-- right, basically BIM level two-- to be able to manage the communication between different software to have different lifecycle phases to manage the integration of different layers, different components. And so, doing so, we really need to open format for that.

We need comprehensive data coming from different tools that exist. And by the end, we need also to not make very complex model that is not really useful. We need to focus on the value of the BIM. So what we are doing is to do the right BIM. Not to do the good BIM, to make the BIM right, but to do the right BIM. That is our objective. So for that, and to lower the cost also, we have invested on open object library. That is ongoing.

But the goal is to share it with sectors, and to make BIM easily available, to make BIM easily-- people can create more, more, and more easily BIM using different kind of library in the railway context. So, now what is about this SNCF Réseau BIM program? I will just give you some overview in detail, also I'm ongoing on BIM and SNCF Réseau.

First of all, the reason of existence of this program, as I say, is to be kind of accelerators that's the enabler for digitalization-- digitalization of construction-- construction and operation of railway system. So all different work package inside this BIM program is organized to reach these objectives. First, I would like to come back to different kind of concept you can have in railway system.

You have a high speed concept. You have some ERTMS. That means that we need to have communication between the train and the side using balise. You have some autonomous train, that is concept ongoing. We have 5G, but that is ongoing. We are working on control and command new generation.

So all this concept that is created by railway professional now is aimed to modify one of the basics of the different subsystems of the railway system. That means that when project managers start their project, they have multiple requirements coming from-- really basic, of course, but also coming from different concepts of operation day-to-day now to implement in different projects. So that is something fundamental because there are not only one way to do railways. Railways is the way to-- railways project is aimed to answer a needs.

And to do so, most of the time you need different kind of concept to combine. And by the end, you have some multiple requirements that have huge impact in what data you need to transfer, and what kind of information you need to make this right. So yeah, they are one concept fundamental in the railway system. The one we professionals currently use is the V cycle that you have in the bottom right.

And on the left, you have some the basic of the different function of railway system that come in with a set of requirement. When different projects need to implement them, they start the V cycle. That is about the system definition in MBSE, so Model-Based System architecture. You have some definition of the concept, and you have design and construction phases. And by the end, that's something is really important in highways. And to check that the system works, that's about testing, that's about validation of the system.

So that is really important to have in mind, because we came back on that later one. But what is important here before doing BIM project is to have in mind that each project have a set of requirements in the railway system, and that those requirements drive data transfer, data information in the system. That is really fundamental.

And if we go deeper on that, on the system integration, you have different subdomain in the railways, and you need to reach specific performance of the system. You need to raise technical performance. And more and more, we have also green performance that's coming with climate change, with different kind of issue now around climate. So the integration here is about data, integration of electronics, integration of course for civil works, integration of hardware, integration of process, but also "humanware." We need also to integrate how people are working around all these complex environments.

So our job is really to have something that answer all this, and at the level of different kind of tools is something we can working on. And when we have some reports of what is ongoing on the BIM now, I just put this diagram to show you, and to highlight where we are collectively here on BIM. You have the starting point of the definition of the concept, when we start a new railway project. The phase of definition concept, we have many, many tools people use for that. Nowadays, you have any connection with BIM tools, or few connections with BIM tools.

That is really important, to have connection between BIM and the requirement of the system. That is something-- we need to progress on that. And BIM now is really focused on design of the system, and the construction of the system. And by the end, when you finish to setup the system for BIM to fill, we have some as-built models, there are few-- also few connection with the tools you have to make the test and the validation phases. So now, if you have a global view of the perspective of the why we are professional now, you know that they are not really happy for what's ongoing now on the BIM sectors. You have some different discontinuity between different kind of tools.

Even if you have different tools in the design and construction, there are many, many problem-- issue for connecting data to connecting different kind of exchange unit. So that is really-- it's not helpful for that. So we need to progress collectively. We need to make sure that we can, in the BIM program-- BIM project-- manage requirement. We need, also in BIM, using BIM, manage test and validation phase making the bridge-- making connection with these worlds. That is missing now.

So the BIM program of SNCF is based on three approach-- three-step approach. The first one is that, to build in that we need people to have to commitment of the people for that. So the first of all, we work on the develop BIM capability in the different teams and different organizations around SNCF. That is, have the change management program to the commitment of the IT department working a different kind of tools, assistance tools, and to working on how data can move from one system to another one. And the second step is about industrialization. We have some proof of concept, many proof of concept.

Now is about to make it really, really usable for all professional in the company. So what we are now is to industrialize some kind of use cases, some BIM tools that helps you to make BIM model, but also to have value inside BIM models. And by the end of the next year, we are start now using digitalization end-to-end, we are calling that. We can-- talking about Digital Twin, but Digital Twin is we are looking something step-by-step using different proof of concept, but working also in the basics-- the common ground that will help us return to build something really automatic end-to-end.

So about the projects in the national level now. We have 160 project that's ongoing. We have-- inside of this project is-- each project-- is kind of laboratories. We have the development of use cases, you have some trained people, and you have also change management inside all these projects. And the different use cases that is developed is really about all railway sectors.

You have some development-- use case development about platform, about telecommunication, about signaling, about energy, track, et cetera. So it's here a moment also to thanks also to these funds for this, because many of these use cases where we set up with the support of Autodesk funds. Thank you for that. We are very-- appreciate that.

And we-- inside of these use cases, what we do is really to focus on railway issue, and work on the solution-- solution around process, around tools, and later on to make it work in the rail works. So we work on coordination, or we can hear coordination between signaling features and categories for visibility, signal visibility of the conductors. You have-- using BIM, you are able to manage that, and that's to demand. That is really working in parallel in the real world.

So now we are able to have some communication-- closed communication using common data environment and using BIM. And we use also different BIM for different kind of use cases around telecommunication issue to place the camera on the platform, closing the door, and to manage the gauges and requirements around the gauges, or space management in the railway context. So in the channel also we develop some use cases.

So before have some linear progression of BIM from designs from construction and operation. We start right now different kind of use cases dedicated to construction sites that we develop BIM to field. And the idea is really quite simple, how we can easily put BIM model to the people who are working in the field to be aware on what is happening in the field next year, next month, next week. And that is something we develop with the people who are really involved in the field and construction sites with different company that is working on that.

For industrialization of the BIM, we also set up laser scanning capability. That is, we have some train, 360, scanning. So we manage infrastructure-- informatics infrastructure. They run behind that to manage capacity and computation to send all this point cloud to the people who are needed in the framework of the project, and more. And we also work on the BIM object library. That is the national library that's aimed to manage all references-- object reference in the railway network, the French network, first of all, and to make it available for all sectors to be-- to manage also requirement around these subjects.

So we can see also that we are working now on how to connect this library to the authoring tools. So thanks also here to Autodesk funds. We are working with Autodesk funds for that. And the first tool-- authoring tools that we are working with is Revit. So this object library that is called BiblioBIM is soon available in Revit.

The last point about industrialization is about standards. IFC standard, we have huge expectation of implementation of IFC from IFC 4.3 where we work with different stakeholders in many countries to set up the content of the BIM library in railway objects. And we are now working with different software vendors to implement that. They are implementing-- buildingSMART implemented a forum that's ongoing. So this work, we are-- is ongoing, but there are many, many publication always available.

We think that IFC really can help in this idea to transfer easily information between software. That is fundamental for us, as you can now understand. And all we are doing is, really, to integrate system, not just build it. So we have the risk of discontinuity of information if this information cannot follow form one tool in the one world into another one.

So now, if you would, about BIM from design, construction, to Digital Twin-- and I came back to these features that is really fundamental to understand what Digital Twin will be for railway professional. Railway professional, Digital Twin need really to answer a different kind of question you may have from resource layer, from control and command layer, and to operational layers. So Digital Twin need to answer that questions.

So our perspective on that is to have in mind that all railway company-- it's not just SNCF-- have many, many database to manage. And that is, most of the time, organized in different kind of silo data lake. And here you have some project data lakes, you have some network description data lake, you have some data lake relative to network states, to network operation, and finance. And the idea is to, using BIM, we'll then have connections with this database to offer more service, to have more information to be modelled to be able to create more and more services using BIM.

And around Digital Twin framework, that's one thing we want to do, to have a layer from simulation-- simulation from design phases to have a view of what will happen. Is this infrastructure works? That is really fundamental. We need to infrastructure works. So Digital Twin may help to have some information of every stage of the lifecycle.

And for that, SNCF lead a national project, that MINERVE, with a strong partnership between different companies in France and research laboratories that is the aim to make available specification for BIM tools dedicated to railways, and to also to work on the BIM performance using BIM for project performance, technical performance, but also environmental performance. And to make available different kind of requirements and proof of concept of different kind of things that help to have BIM and Digital Twin continuity, and to make solution available. That's something else-- to provide solution, and to provide a specification that can help.

So this program is funded by French government-- about 35 million euro for four years. That's ongoing. We have major players in engineering. We have player on construction company. We have some research company also that's involved from that-- in this program. And basically, all we want to do on Digital Twin is to, first of all, have a kind of information level that aim to give information for people who need the information, to right information for the right people at the right moment.

And the second level is about analytical level. You don't have data. You need to have some analysis the system, but also to anticipate some scenarios coming in the railway system. So we have-- we need analytical level for using the Digital Twin. And by the end, we need also later on have some-- manage a different kind of asset using configuration. So configuration means that we need to develop the network using new configuration of the network, that we need to use the same approach for data sites using the model of that infrastructure.

So that is the three fundamental points we need to tackle in Digital Twin. And now where we are, we are developing different kind of use cases. Here you have some proof of concept or using BIM for maintenance programming. So we make BIM model, and we connect to this BIM model different kind of legacy database that aim-- that is used for maintenance. And for that, we saw that we need to reconfigure the BIM model to be able really to connect BIM with the maintenance database.

We work also around monitoring, and especially on the forks. And we have a multi-source data connected to the BIM models to be able to transfer information on field to the BIM system. So just a figure and how we want to plan that. Now for BIM model for design and construction set, we are really focused on common data environment to make BIM for requirements of the system to be-- for the system to build, and as build system. And later, on we need to move this information, BIM, in a different kind of database, a connected database to the Digital Twin environments.

So that is something we are continuing to working on. And from the BIM perspective, what we are doing is that we have some BIM data to manage how we manage that. We manage all this using the common data environment. We have some different project models, as-built models as well. And we have some layer to integrate them in the linear network.

And for that, we use as-built model for sure. We use different kind of system functions to make sure that we manage and handle really what different kinds of BIM objects aim to do. And to use also system architecture to manage this system integration. So linear referencing is really something fundamental to make all this data on the common ground. And this data, BIM data, is connected to the legacy system using a kind of connection ebb that's called BIM connection to have a bidirectional flow between the different assistant system and the BIM network.

So to support also this system architecture-- that is the work we are doing in Europe on level-- is to making convergence with different kind of European railway professional to have system architecture. That is a framework of the new program that is ongoing on the Europe's rail program, the System Pilar, where we have to manage the system architecture, to build the system architecture, to provide different kind of function that is needed to make railway function, and to manage also the performance of the different subsystem of railway system. So that is something we are doing at European level to make it available and stable for different kinds of users for Digital Twin dynamics.

So, now I want to finish my presentation on this sequence about requirement of BIM. So I share with you different kind of activities for railway professional, and what railway professional may be happy with BIM. And our job is to make different kind of BIM technology and surrounding technology really relevant for different kind of activity using BIM.

So we have some basic needs that's come in from different actors who working in BIM. It's first of all from the left, you have some BIM value to manage. So many, many BIM users, or BIM experts working on different kind of use cases, basic use cases that is really generic. And most of the time, people say to me, OK, but that is generic. I need just to make the train run, but there I don't understand really these basic use cases, where I can put it, because we have some global system and we don't really manage the values of BIM.

Managing the values of the BIM, that is fundamental. That's what we need, and that's what we are doing at SNCF. The second level is about managing BIM in railway project context. So when we see the BIM literacy, we know that there are many, many kind of principle that is really-- BIM professionals are focused on that. And the issue is that, for railway professional, they have the impression that it's something in parallel. BIM is not something really for railway professional. That's something people say to me.

So We need really to make it around the tools, around process, and around what-- yeah, how we do BIM to make BIM close to the project. It's a railway project, but I think it's the same for different kind of projects in different industry. So it's the-- we need to really take care of-- BIM is not different from the project. BIM is the project, and the project is doing BIM. That is not really something very natural for people who are doing BIM.

And design and construction phases, we need also to have more focus on the value we bring on the system. We need to focus on design and construction tools that are really dedicated, and that bring really the output that's suspected from the system perspective-- not for just to make 3D models, or make different kind of complex model, and so on that. It's really to focus on the goal-- why, why I'm doing that, for what-- by the end.

And if you don't have this question, you have some different kind of model, and maybe you are in representation-- physical representation of a system, that is not the issue of the system most of the time. Most of time, it's about how do the system works. That's the very basics. And by the end about data structure, we need to have the right tools and the right process. We need to have open formats to extend data.

We don't have any people who are able to manage all kind of process, all kind of function that is needed in railway but also is right for global construction in the industry. We need to have some basics. I make just here for, I may say, the real wish of basic tools-- architectural basic tools. See that? First of all, we need to manage input data-- to manage many, many input data.

Avoid just putting the formula to have some direct answer, or the value in a formula, but a capability also to manage massive data inputs, and to manage some preprocessing data. That is really fundamental. Depending of data source, you need to preprocess this. Preprocessing your data, why? Because your software is value-- business value-- and need different kind of organization of data. That is something we need to manage inside your software.

That's really fundamental. And by the end, when you finish the transformation of data, and the new value data, we need also to have comprehensive data output. This way, the railway professional input, I think-- it's not just only dedicated to railway professional-- that is help to have some system integration more easily. You know what's in, you know what's out, and you can work with that.

If not, it's really complicated to have some complex system using BIM now. And all these reports of the-- we've seen for those points. Within that, in the BIM professional, you have generate BIM use cases. And people who just have some, OK, I want to use 4D, I want to use 5D, 6D, 8D, and people are not just focusing on what is the needs. That's so-- more often, we have this kind of view on the BIM [INAUDIBLE], or people who are doing BIM.

That is really critical. We need to focus the value. We need to develop more use cases when needed, and we need to answer the question that's elsewhere that is asked by a professional. The second point is that we need to avoid that idea that the BIM is something different, and you need to be BIM specialist to do BIM. BIM is something we need to bring to people who are working on a different system. That's really important.

So we need to have comprehension using BIM, but you need to adapt BIM to the system, not the system to the BIM. We are-- more often we are-- we meet some people who say, OK, you need to adapt your process to BIM. No, no. The way is not to adapt the stem process.

That is something independent of how to represent the system. But you need to have the right tools to do your system. That's what we need. And around tools for design and construction, we have many, many intermediate tools that make the system complex and unusable. You need to focus on simple tools. We need to provide simple tools that is comprehensive with input data, comprehensive in what value they bring, in which part of the system, and what output.

That is really important, to focus on that. We need to progress collectively, we need to progress on that. And by the end, they run data structure. I just see that open data format. That's important, that we knew the multi-format data input and output. We need to have-- to share comprehensive data. IFC may be a solution, but in the railway domain, we don't have only IFC. But we need comprehensive information.

The value of your software is not your data in, it's not in data out. It is in the core value of your system, that you need to protect that. But output data, we need to make it available because it's made the system right. We made the capability to build the system and to integrate the system. That's really fundamental.

And I will end with one group. We set up that core railways BIM users group. That is kind of cultural discussion between railway professionals about what is their perspective on BIM, and BIM tools, and what it means. And what we see that we can show in these pictures is about 25 organizations around that is a committee on this group. And we are aim to promote dialogue between stakeholder and solution provider to make sure that we can have some needs that have a sound message for the solution provider that help them to go straight to the value of the systems the software, but also to make their software usable for of where we professional. And what we are so-- what we ask to all people who join the table, they say, OK, what is really important for you using BIM?

They have a few words that they say. It's we need interoperability because in this context of the railway, we have many, many tools we need to use for many, many reasons. So if you cannot connect then, you have some discontinuity to the data flow. That is really-- basically, that do not work. You cannot create new tools, software just to connect software between software. That is something that's really complex, and to manage-- is unmanageable.

They say that they need more functionality with BIM. That is why I talk about use cases. We need to develop more and more use cases. We need to focus on the end user that we forget for most of time. We need flexibility. Flexibility is really important, to be sure that we can use software more efficiently.

We need to secure information around software. That is fundamental for railways, but we have to face many, many security issues. And we need also safety. We need that the software is not just something we do in the-- we do without regarding really how to make it work while making it robust. And by the end, I share with you a few words about what railway professionals shares in this users group.

A few words is they need to manage data full life cycle. That means that if you have one tools or BIM, or one BIM process, we need to think about what is real life cycle of this. And to have this in mind, to propose solution. We need to have also connection with it to say that, OK, I am providing one tool that is something that we can use in one context, and people just need what is the data I can use, and they need what data I can provide, and what kind of transformation of the data we propose.

And using IPA, that is something they are waiting for to have some kind of urbanization of the BIM tools. They need also to have some close look on provide easily existing data that are modeling for data that we-- documentation also. They are talking about the linear referencing in the system. As you know, we may have kilometers of tracks, and we need also to have a view of the global view on different systems and subsystem. That linear referencing is something fundamental.

We are talking about managing simulation. We need to make simulation. So using BIM for simulation means that we manage the requirement of the system. We cannot simulate the system if we don't know exactly different kind of assets-- BIM asset, BIM objects-- what's the need-- what they do, and they have the right information inside there. So simulated is really fundamental for Digital Twin later one. But before Digital Twin, but to make-- and to check the system is right and the system can work.

So by the end, they are also talking about the V cycle, the famous. So they need to have validation of system, but also using BIM to define the system. So that is mainly what I want to share with you. I hope that help also the dialogue, and also the more comprehension of what is expectation of railway professional, and what the BIM can do-- what you can do for the railway professional to make their digital transformation right, and able to happen. Thank you.